Do You Actually Need a CFO? (What They Do That Your Accountant Doesn't)

What if the next breakthrough in your business isn't another customer… but better financial leadership?

In this episode, I sit down with Matthew Mills, former professional footballer and Chief Revenue Officer at The CFO Centre.

Like many business owners, I didn't think I needed a CFO. But after working with one myself, I realised how much clarity, confidence and profitability I was missing.

We talk about Matthew's journey from professional football into business, what a fractional CFO actually does, why so many business owners wait too long to get financial support, and how understanding your numbers can completely change the way you run your business.

In this episode:
Why most business owners think they don't need a CFO
The biggest financial mistakes growing businesses make
How better financial reporting leads to better decisions
The surprising similarities between elite sport and business
Why profitability matters more than revenue
When it's the right time to bring in a CFO

🎧 Hit play to discover why understanding your numbers could be the biggest competitive advantage your business is missing.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Focus on the Fun Stuff, the podcast for business owners who want to build a business that they actually love. I'm your host, Emma Mills, seven-figure founder of MyPA, the UK's leading virtual PA support agency. And since 2008, MyPA has helped thousands of business owners to buy back their time, get out of the weeds, and focus on what matters most. And every week on the podcast, I'm sharing my own journey, live as it happens, and interviewing other business owners who've been exactly where you are now. And we're sharing practical tactics and real strategies to help you build a business that works for you, not the other way around. Matthew Mills, welcome to Focus on the Fun Stuff. Thank you for having me. Um, you're the first, just saying, you're the first professional footballer I've ever had on the show. You're also the first chief revenue officer I've had on the show. Cover first today.

SPEAKER_03 0:53

Ex-professional footballer.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

We are going to chat about that a little bit as well. Um, I just want to put people in the picture that you and your business introduced me to something that I didn't know I needed, but has made the most tremendous impact in the past six months, and it's been so brilliant. Like we then met, and I just want to I want to do it in lots of ways, but I want to tell everyone that listens, folks, on the fun stuff, about what I'm using from your service, how it's impacting me, and we can unpack that a little bit because I think very much of today's episode will be about something that people never really think about getting, but should.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

That's amazing to hear. Um, you know, certainly when I was client-facing, uh, I got a lot of that feedback, and it was great to hear, but also really frustrating because you're thinking there's so many other people that we can help.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yeah, on I I totally get that because I was, yeah, honestly. Well, I'll go into the story, but I did not think that I needed a CFO, but I do, and I did, and it's amazing. Um, so Matthew, you were a professional footballer. It's quite a switch from the football industry, I'm sure, to the world of finance and chief financial officers. Like, how did that how did that happen, that transition?

SPEAKER_03 2:02

Yeah, I I think I think from what the public see of of professional football is and going into business is very different. Um, but being a professional footballer is a lot more than just what you see on the pitch. Um certainly from from my experience, um being involved in commercial conversations from quite a young age, really, around like contractual stuff.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

Um, and I always found that really, really interesting. Um, and obviously there is there is differences. I'm not running around a a pitch of gr you know, a pitch anymore. Um, but hopefully that you know, I I think there's some transferable skills in in what I've picked up throughout my life, life experiences that that we've adapted I've adapted to to business.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Yeah. So so but how did that transition happen? How did you literally go from professional footballer to chief your chief revenue officer now at the CFO centre? Like how did that transition happen?

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Yeah, so when I was growing up, if I think back to uh you know being say eight years old, I didn't I didn't know what an entrepreneur or a business owner was. Um that just because no no one I knew was a business owner.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 3:09

You know, um my my parents, my dad was in a job, uh my mum was a stay-at-home mum, which is arguably the hardest job in the world. Um, you know, my friends, uh their parents were, you know, builders, plumbers, things like that. Nobody had their own business, and I I didn't really think in that way. Um, and I obviously got into football because initially uh I enjoyed it. I say initially, we can probably talk about that. Initially I enjoyed it, and then you kind of you realize actually there's a there's a career to be had here, and I think one of the things that attracted me to it was I think the statistics are something like 0.001% of people become a professional footballer.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

So um for those that have watched the film Dumb and Dumber, I was thinking, so you're telling me there's a chance? Like I I was like, this this sounds this sounds great, like I I I love a challenge. Um so I managed to get myself into an academy and uh left school at 15 and moved to Southampton, and uh we had this uh this this speech, you know, in in the room. The comp it's almost like the competitive nature of it starts straight away. It was like one of you in this room is gonna make it. So I just had this, yeah, yeah. Um so I just had this like burning desire that that has to be me. Like I'm gonna give absolutely everything to make this happen. Um and I was really fortunate that I come through the the academy there, um, broke into the first team um at 16, um, got into the England squads, like I was never Wow. I was never like the best player, yeah, but I just had that that grit and determination that if if anyone was better than me, I was gonna like work harder, chase them down. Um so yeah, broke into the first team there, signed for Man City when I was 19, which was was it was a massive move because obviously moving to the n northwest, away from the um the southwest where I'd grown up, growing up a lot in the in that time, uh managed to break through to the first team, uh, play a couple of games for for City, um, and then the club got took took over and a lot more money came in and I could see the doors closing. So, yeah, spent the next 20 years foraging a career, um Leicester, uh Reading, Bolton, Nottingham Forest, etc. Really, really enjoyed it. And then when my football career came to an end, um my body gave out pretty much. I think I I think I had 15 epidurals because I was getting so much pain in my back and referring into my legs. Wow. And yeah, it's I think COVID was kind of kicking off and it was like a it was almost a relief like the hamster wheel stopping. Yeah. Um so so so on one hand it was a relief I can stop playing football, but then on the other hand it was like what what the hell am I gonna do? Yeah, all I know is football. Um almost institutionalized, I'd probably say with the word was. Um and then I I I looked at what my options were and it was you know, do I go into sports agencies? Again, it's very competitive, it's cutthroat, um, all go and be a coach or a manager. So I I took my coaching badges, um, which was an amazing experience, um, spending the week with World Cup winners and like learning how to potentially become a coach. Um, but the last year of my career I was a player assistant manager, it kind of led into a a kind of taster. I realized I didn't like that. Um then I then I found media, so I worked with Sky Sports for a year. Um, and the whole time I was just thinking, I don't even really like football anymore, but it it's all I know, so where do I go from here? Um and then I thought about setting up my own business, and I still think it's a great idea, but I didn't do it because my dad had set up a business 25 years 25 years ago this year, and obviously he was working the business, and two of my brothers were, um, and I could feel their energy and their passion for it, and I was thinking I I I want a bit of that. Um so I approached them about maybe joining the business, um, to which my dad said no.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Really?

SPEAKER_03 7:17

Yeah, and I was super surprised. But he said because COVID was kicking off, he couldn't be seen to be bringing his son into the business when potentially other people might be leaving. Yeah. Um so I said I'd work for free. So I I worked for free for six months to see if it was right for me, right for them. Uh came in and did pretty well. Did pretty well. Uh so I took over a region, we kind of scaled that from literally ground zero to about 1.6 million revenue in the first year.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Wow. Um during what so what year was this? 2020?

SPEAKER_03 7:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Wow, fair play, that is amazing.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

Yeah, it was um I I think we've got a very unique offering in the sense of um it's a business with a fair win behind it. Yeah. I think Warren Buffett says. Um when things are booming and going well, you definitely need a CFO to help and guide the ship. When things are going bad, you definitely need a CFO. You definitely need somebody all over the numbers. So so either way the kind of uh the economy's going, I think our our offering is pretty suited. So COVID was actually quite an alright time for us. Not significant growth like previous years.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:29

Um and we certainly got the COVID bounce back.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Yeah. I just realised as well, you said that the stat about the professional footballer players that make it is 0.001%. Haven't you brought your brothers ex-professional football players as well?

SPEAKER_03 8:41

All four of us actually play professional football at one stage or the other.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

How on earth? The percentages of that must be off the scale of a possibility.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

The the standard in the garden growing up was was pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

That's crazy. Um and so just before we get into like the CFO, what what what a CFO is as well a one-on-one pack, because I think loads of people don't realise that. Just your so your dad, is that Peter? My dad. Yeah, your dad. Colin. Colin, sorry, Colin. So Colin Mills, just his idea for the CFO centre. Can you do because when we met the other week and we had coffee, I just thought, um, I I get it now from the other perspective of how the CFO centre came about and why it's why it's grown so quickly, just like his backstory on creating it.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

Yeah, so so my dad was was a CFO um for for quite large organisations, pedigrees, Mars, etc. And he he would literally was never at home growing up. He would come back for the weekends, watch the football, and he'd be gone again. Like my mum literally like how down the fall. And I think it was 15, so I'd I was just leaving home to go and start my my career, and I think uh my dad was just like, I'm kind of missing out on like having kids, like their lives. Um, it also coincided with his dad passing away.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Right.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

And one of the things that I think my dad says about people that start their business, they're either running away from something or they're running towards something. And he said initially, like I was running away. I was running away from corporate life, like I felt trapped, um, working all the hours that God sends, and it wasn't until I kind of really the sat down and thought about the opportunity I started running towards something, and that became really, really powerful. So th you know the concept of the the CFO centre is CFOs have an incredible skill set, but an incredible skill set comes with quite a lofty salary.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:39

Um, so be for SMEs to access that skill set becomes very, very challenging um or impossible. Um so the the the model basically was for dad to say, Listen, I've got this skill set, how can I offer it to businesses that that don't need it kind of full time, yeah, don't want it full time, I can't afford it full-time, but I can add significant value, be that a couple of days a month, a day a week, really in that kind of strategic space to to drive the business forward. And I think when businesses s t s typically set up, it's about sales, right? Get the money through it all, marketing. Yeah. Um it finance isn't typically seen to necessarily propel the business forward, but as you start to grow and realize actually, where are we making profit? Like, how do we raise capital to grow? All these types of things start becoming a challenge for business owners, and that's where a CFO skill set can can really push a business on.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Yeah. And there'll be people that listen to this that go, yeah, but I've got an accountant. Because I think that would have been my mindset for quite a long time. And like I don't have a big business, like my business does like very early seven figures. And I think like that the idea of a CFO to me, we were just saying before this podcast, like, feels quite lofty. It feels like board of directors and and it feels like big numbers in a business. But for someone that's singing, but I've got a really good accountant, I get management reports every month. How would you articulate the difference between an accountant and a CFO for someone that's like, Well, I but what why do I need that as well?

SPEAKER_03 12:10

Um, so you definitely need an accountant, and we don't do what accountants do. Uh the analogy I would use is your accountant and your finance team, so anything uh financial controller and under, if you're driving a car, they're in the they're in the back seat looking through the rear view mirror.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

A CFO is sat alongside you in the driver's seat saying, Okay, I I can look 10% of my time in the rear view mirror because that is important, but I spend the other 90% forward. So all of a sudden the the questions they're asking you, um, the challenges they're putting on your toes, the ability to then um make sense of the numbers so that that that monthly reporting you're getting to then make strategic decisions is a completely different skill set.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

That is a brilliant analogy because I very much so Paul from the CFO Centre started working with me in January, I think it was now, and that completely came about by chance. I was sat at an award ceremony, sat next to one of your directors, we were chatting about CFOs. Best decision to sit next to that guy at the award ceremony because it's had such a brilliant brilliant impact. But that analogy that you use of like sitting side by side and looking forward, that's exactly how I feel with Paul from the CFO centre. That we're very much he's kind he's almost like looking further ahead than me because I guess I'm very much like in the business making sales, have we hit sales target? And he's kind of doing that forward. I feel very supportive with like that forward thinking of it. Well, you know, oh cash flow might be a problem here, we need to look at this in this month. Like he's all he what you though the analogy you just used is perfect from my experience of it. Um, and just so with like I mean, some of the things I would say, I just want to say on this as well, if anybody's like, okay, clearly Emma likes having a CFO, but he's really um I mean, you don't know what you don't know, and I I consider myself pretty in the numbers in my business. I feel like I I know I can clearly immediately see when something's off, if something's not aligned. But I really think even if you are you get your management reports every month, you think you're all over your numbers, you still don't know what you don't know. Like in the past month alone, we've been talking about asset funding. I didn't even know that was a thing or a possibility, it makes cash flow easier. Um, he's been in and been helping us with um understanding the triggers for employee and team members. So when there might be 75% capacity, 100% capacity, and things that we have had fag packet spreadsheets for for ages, he's just gone away, taken and brought, and it's like, oh my god, this makes so much sense. Like, you know, he's like answered questions we've had that have been lingering around in the business for ages, and then just as like just unpacked it and solved it. Um so I like is there and and I think when I started with Paul, like I t I told him where we were at and we we kind of mapped out what the best what the best use of time for me was at the moment. We like treated the most say urgent things, the things that were weighing on my mind. Is there a kind of a a method or a framework or a plan that you will generally, you know, when your client comes to you that you will take them through?

SPEAKER_03 15:16

Yeah, so full disclaimer, I'm I'm not a CFO. So I I think I think these guys, what they did they they do is is is absolutely incredible. Life life-changing, literally life-changing for clients. Um in terms of uh a methodology, I didn't I didn't know what a CFO did when I joined the business seven years ago. Um we've got a really cool bit of IP that we call the 12 boxes, which really articulates, like you say, on a fag packet, what a CFO does. Um and and if I talk through that, I think it will kind of bring it to life. So there's three layers of of four boxes, and the bottom four boxes around things that support the business. So it's about being compliant. So again, that's what your accountant's there for. Um, I think the thing you touched on about being side by side, I think that's really, really important. Um, as an accountant, that they are an external provider, yeah. Um, and they've got a plethora of clients, whereas we are in the business with you, that's very fundamentally different. Um, so yeah, the relationship you have your accountants, things how you optimize from a tax and a legal perspective, um uh auditing outsources, um, picking up with the bank, yeah. So, like all relationships that support the business that typically, in my experience, business owners don't really want to have their conversation. I'm sure you didn't set the business speak to HMRC, for example.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

100%.

SPEAKER_03 16:39

So, so having a CFO to kind of face off and uh you know give you the tips of the trade around some of the things. I remember a client once saying we've got this massive um tax issue. CFO went in there and they're like, that that isn't an issue, but this is type of thing. So it's getting it giving you the confidence that you've got somebody to support you in those areas.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

So much, and honestly, for anyone that's just like not sure on that, Paul has taken my HMRC relationship, that in itself, not just being on hold for two hours and just that whole like it's not the energy, you know, as a business owner, I think I talk a lot about protecting your energy because I think your energy transfers through to everybody else. And when you're switching from don't know, we're trying to make a sale to ringing HMRC to managing T, it's all very it's it's it's hard for a lot of business owners and and knowing that now Paul has taken that relationship, it's just it's playing in the space that you play best in, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

Exactly. Um an another outsourcing uh and and this is where our partners are really crucial. Um, the partners that kind of uh sit within our ecosystem. Uh we've got a client recently, uh I I won't name their name, but we save them 120 grand a year on how they take car payments. Oh my gosh. Because nobody had looked at that since they set up the business. So it's just all those kind of looking under every kind of rock and what where can uh where can we have value. Um and then we step inside the business and you start looking at okay, so what systems are we using, what reporting are we using, how do we look at profitability, how do we manage cash flow? Um again, you might have an internal bookkeeper or financial controller that has their eyes over this, and our role isn't to come in and say, You're doing this wrong, or this is rubbish. It's very, very supportive in terms of being a part of that team to say, have you thought about this or have you looked at that? or um so I think there's a big mentoring piece as well, um, with a lot of our clients. Um, so typically I talk about the fact that our service should be cost net neutral at a minimum because there are so many quick wins within those eight boxes I've kind of touched on. Now, if you've got the the business designed in that way, um it should save you money that I've mentioned, but most importantly, time. Like when I was client-facing, I would speak a a lot around how much of your time is being dragged into these kind of conversations. Yeah, like where do you enjoy spending your time? It's like over here, it's like great, go over there. Like we've got this. So I I think that's really really important. Where we add the most value is obviously in the strategic space. So, what's the long-term plan of the business? Like, is it a sale? Like, what does that look like? Yeah, because when that time comes, if you haven't got two or three years of data, and when you come to sell the business, whoever's looking to buy it is gonna go straight into those middle four boxes, poke their nose around, and try and drill you down on price. Yeah, whereas if you've been preparing for that, it makes it a lot easier to create the um, you know, the whole process, move forward quicker. Yeah. Um, identifying risks, so that's going back to the forward-looking uh part of it. Having a business plan, having people in the organization bought into that. Like I've heard some great stories from clients where you know finance was the dark arts, nobody who spoke to them, they sat in the corner. Now all of a sudden it's engaging the sales team, they want to know how you know how sales are going so they can hit their targets and all these types of things. So it's bringing people on a journey. And then the last and the last box is around funding. Uh, we've raised over 12 billion pounds of funds for our clients, and I didn't realise like how many different types of funding options were out there.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Totally. I've literally had a similar conversation. Hey, Pause but put me in touch with um an asset uh asset funding manager, and we're we're moving office um t soon. I didn't even realise you could fund the things that we would need to buy for the office. Like, again, like I just want to reiterate so much you don't know what you don't know in this instance, do you?

SPEAKER_03 20:50

So so I can I can tell you the war stories. I can't tell you the detail because I said I'm not a CFO, but I remember one of our clients, they they were a drain cleaning company, and and the machines were costing anything but a quarter of a million to half a million, right? And they had four of these machines, and they had so many orders coming in, but they didn't they couldn't fulfil them, they didn't have enough machines. So we were literally in there a month and we looked at the way that they had uh borrowed against the the these bits of kit, and it was a 50% down and payment over three years. And the CFO come in straight away, looked at the balance sheet, and said, What's going on here? Called the bank and said, Look at this balance sheet, we want put 25% in and we want to pay it over seven years. So having that conversation, a million pounds straight in the cash flow, four bought bits of machinery, and they doubled the business in the first year of us being there.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Wow. Yeah. I s uh yeah, honestly, like I I haven't had that like return yet, but I just can totally see how yeah, when you're a business owner, you you just like put you like kind of you're you're fixing you're putting the track the um tracks down in front of the train while it's moving, and so you don't have the luxury of what how else could I do this?

SPEAKER_03 22:03

And but but but what why would you? Like one of one of the fears of of of me coming into the business was like, Oh my god, I'm gonna be speaking to like business owners, they've probably been to university, they're gonna be using all these acronyms. And then when I when I met like my clients, when I say they're normal people, I don't think entrepreneurs are normal people, I think they're incredibly brave and and all the things that go into being an entrepreneur. A business owner, but they don't necessarily know how to grow a business. They might be great at or passionate about whatever. So having somebody who's been there, seen it, and done it, and how businesses grow and scale and exit and all fundraise, all those types of things, why wouldn't you get that person side by side with them? Um, you know, my dad still sits on the board for his first other client half a day a month.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Does he really?

SPEAKER_03 22:50

Yeah. And he got introduced to them by my mum speaking to his wife in the in a car garage when she was getting serviced. They were an eight million turnover travel company, uh selling everything from bucket and spade holidays, European holidays, cruises, etc. And my dad just looking at the numbers would say, you know, why have you got the sales team over there during these months? Because you sell more of this stuff. And now imagine cruising a turning over 250 million.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Wow. No. Oh my gosh. Um business exits. I just we were just talking pre-podcast, just about some of the amazing testimonials, cases that you've had, but I feel like in my world, when business owners are talking about exits, they might have like a business coach that's helping them with that. They'll be speaking to their accountant. Um, there'll be lots of people listening to this that have got a plan for a future exit. Just either with like some of the examples that you've got, but how what can a CFO bring to the exit of a business? Or even I mean, to be fair, like I've been working with Paul for six months. We've talked about that. Like, what does it look like now if we wanted to do that in three years, two years? But but what what is the additional that a CFO would bring into that exit piece with it?

SPEAKER_03 24:03

So I think the the the the the thing you've touched on there is around you you need time, so you need to build up to these things. And I mentioned those 12 boxes before and having those kind of in work in order and uh at least running for a couple of years to to warrant that conversation. We get 50% of our new business through referrals. Right. Um so so typically uh banks and accountants, right? Because they're they're they've got the relationship with their clients that um again it's external. So th or you know the bank's lending them money or they know their next is coming up. So to have somebody inside that organization that they know is credible to help them through everything that is going to go through due diligence, um data rooms, all of these things, like you can't do that externally. So you need somebody in-house, and that's where our model works really well, certainly in the SME space, because like I say, that 150-200 grand a year plus salary for a CFO is just way too daunting.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Yeah, totally. So I don't think most of the people even consider it a CFO because it would just feel like a massive salary, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_03 25:06

Yeah, and I think I think what's really important about the the kind of lofty title of a CFO, and and and I observed this a lot when I was client-facing, that you'd meet a prospect, I don't know, turn over say three million pounds, and they're working from a little office, and and it's like oh, this CFO's gonna come in, and it's like they were almost more nervous about meeting us than we were about getting their business type of thing, right? Um but I think one of the big things about our recruitment, we we take one in a hundred of CFOs that apply for us, the criteria is really, really high. Um, and we've got some amazing people, you know, ex-CFO of Apple, KFC, Balfour BT, like you name it, we've we've got it. But the thing that really kind of captures them to come to the CFO centre is what we call the barbecue test. Would you invite them to your family barbecue? And and that is all around culture because when you are placing a CFO, um, you know, there's no recruitment fee in our model, there's no exit fee in our model, there's no six-month tie-in, a year tie-in. It's we think we can help and support you, and then meeting in that individual. Now, if the chemistry doesn't uh fit, obviously we could change the c potentially change the CFO, but I think the r when it comes to client retention, it's the relationships that our CFOs build with our clients. Like you are going on that journey with them. Yeah, yeah. And if you don't get on or there's like a you know a cultural clash, like that is going to be an issue, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Yeah, yeah, totally. And um, I mean, I in a way we have similar services in that we provide fractional executive assistance, it's about the relationship, it's about getting them out of the weeds so they can f focus on growing the business, what they need to do. A question I get asked a lot is like, when do you know it's time to get an executive assistant? Is it and I mean the answer is like as soon as human possible humanly possible, because the more you can protect and leverage your own time as the business owner, whether it is speaking to HMRC and like if somebody's thinking, oh you know, I I I do want to grow my business, um, I've got a good amount of revenue, like are there some signs or signals if somebody says, Well, how do I know when I need to get a CFO? What what is that point? Is there like some Yeah?

SPEAKER_03 27:11

So so for my advice, like we're happy to speak to business owners, so like we'll have the conversation, and through that conversation we all we'll start unearthing whether we think we can add value or not. Um to to the point I made around our engagement before, there's no point in us taking on a client if we don't think we can add value. Because there's there's it's so de-risked to engage with the CFO centre. If I try and sell something in, if we're not adding value after a month or two, we're gonna be gone. Yeah, so so there's no benefit for us to try and sell a solution that doesn't fit the mold. So my encouragement would be get in contact and let's have a conversation. It's it's really informal. Um, I think there's if I think about myself going into the family business, there's there's probably a bit of it, like there's ego in there, certainly from my side when it's like I don't want to piggyback off my dad. I think some business owners, and I've seen this, is by the way, I've seen businesses get to like 20-25 million on like blood, sweat and tears, like drive, and then never they don't need to ask for help because they're succeeding, and then they come to realisation, okay, there's things that are happening now that I can't do, and then they reach out and you think we we could have been a help like two or three years ago, and they say that, but sometimes I think it's uh is a is it's a timing thing. Um, my advice would be just to have the conversation, and we would advise you as much as yourself kind of come into that realization it might be a little bit too early. Um, here's people within our network that we recommend, or I've heard a couple of things in conversation that I'd like to introduce you to these people because I think they could help. So very, very kind of collaborative approach.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Yeah. Uh and that's been uh totally my experience as well of it. I wanted to ask you what it's like from the family perspective of everybody working in the business. Um, there's a couple of people close to me, like a couple of mentors, and it's fathers and sons, and there's like all different dynamics and different experiences of that. Like, how is it for the Mills family?

SPEAKER_03 29:37

Um, so so whenever I I hear talk about family businesses, I I don't know why in my mind, like it comes up with people going um like they can be a disaster, they can be a disaster. My experience has been the complete opposite. I like my my dad is just an amazing guy, um, really, really supportive. My my three brothers are my best men like at my wedding. Are they really? Yeah, they they were bet like best men at my wedding, they're my best friends. Um Wow. We we we all have completely different skill sets, so the things that they want to do, I would never ever want to do, and I'm grateful that they are good at those types of things, and I think that's reciprocated. Um it's it's funny because I look at the name of your podcast, and dad talks about that all the time. Does he? Yeah, it's like you got we want to have like making it fun along the way. Like that's really, really important to him. So he wouldn't want us in a role that we're waking up miserable every day, grinding through it, like because you you're not gonna deliver your best work. Like, for me, I've never had a job that's felt like a job, it's something that I'm passionate about and it's I want to do, and if I didn't want to do it, I'd do something else.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

And so it all I mean that sounds like it's been quite easy. Like, is there anything you've had to learn from like work relationship to best friend relationship to dad relationship? Is it like have you all just kind of naturally just made that work? Or is there anything you've had to learn and put in place to separate between? And do you have to separate between? Like, obviously, the podcast is about work-life balance and stuff as well. Like, has it been, you know, when the Mills family get together, it's just all CFO centre talk, or it it's been really, really natural.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

Um, but I do think we are coming to uh and and we've been pairing this probably for the last couple of years, is kind of through that kind of succession. Uh-huh. Um, you know, dad's dad's 68, he doesn't want to obviously work in the business. Well, he probably will work in the business until he until in his words he goes out in a box. And and we need him, like we wouldn't want him to go anywhere. But he certainly isn't going to be doing what he was doing 25 years ago when he set out the business.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:39

Um, and it is an interesting dynamic for sure. Like you will be having um uh holo you know, talking about the kids and holidays to uh, you know, a boardroom kind of conversation, to an owner conversation, to an operational conversation, and it can bounce around. Um but dad being a CFO and kind of all my brother has a saying about my dad that he he he lives in the future and he occasionally visits the present. So he's kind of thought about a lot of these steps and um putting in frameworks around um time to dedicate to talk about certain things. Right. Um I wouldn't say we've cracked it because conversations do blur and you get excited and somebody else will raise something, but um we are kind of going through a succession play um fundament fundamentally led by dad and his time um is spent more on um the global business um and and things like um I don't know, inheritance tax planning and succession and and those types of things rather than the operational.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

And the global business, because I didn't realise that until we met in the coffee shop. So just like tell me about that because you have other service arms as well that have kind of I guess been natural um they they complement the the CFO role. Like just tell me a little bit more about that as well.

SPEAKER_03 32:57

Yeah, so uh like I said, it was it was my dad on his own getting a a a portfolio of clients, and then it was actually easier to to uh to attract m CFOs wanting to work in that way rather than clients. Right. So it's like chicken and egg, what comes first? You need the CFOs to get the clients, right? So um kind of is grown the UK business, and then then so we've got 350 CFOs across the UK now. Wow, and I think in about 2010, um one of our CFOs moved over to Australia, which coincided with my uh second eldest brother moving to Australia, and uh my dad said he was walking around Sydney Harbour going, you know, what's the difference between Sydney and South End, right? Uh this businesses, and they all might need a CFO. So um our group CEO says that my dad was clinically insane when he set up Australia with £9,000 in the bank. Really? Uh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

So what year was that that that was set up?

SPEAKER_03 33:50

I think it was 2010. I think, yeah. Yeah. Um so we set up in Australia again. Uh a a friend in town, you know, literally a CFO had moved there, so we had a friend in town set out the business. Um, and then we start kind of like picking off the countries in terms of um Canada, America, uh South Africa, the English-speaking countries. Um we launched in Dubai last year as well. So yeah, we're up to 18 countries of 900 CFOs uh globally now. And then and then obviously once you realise okay, this works for CFOs, why can't it work for uh fractional marketing directors, HR directors? And that's where liberty, liberty with an eye, was formed. And liberty actually means like breaking the chains for freedom. Um so offering you know corporate uh C-suite uh an exit into fractional working. Um the family obviously have a small interest in those businesses um to help and support people. You know, my dad's vision is every day uh uh sorry, someday every every business will have a part-time CFO, and that could be from a million to billions.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:57

Um but also those those other fractional C suites.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Yeah. So when you when uh when Australia was launched, was your your brother was did he just join the business then, the Australia one?

SPEAKER_03 35:08

No, he he he didn't join the business straight away. He was over there on like a work visa trying to trying to get into Australia. It was just the the the CFO uh kind of being working with with dad around how to get the business off the ground.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

That is so cool. And how do how do you find like with that global expansion? Because I'm uh clearly like Colin drove most of that. Like that, do you have like um managers or like leads in those countries? Like, how do you find that kind of because to me the the global expansion thing feels like gosh, how do we get the culture the same, the the brand, the not the brand, but like the the CFO centre way of doing things? Like, how did Colin approach that in terms of the pop like almost like popping it into each country? Was there like a model that kept being followed?

SPEAKER_03 35:57

Yeah, and that model's gone through a few iterations. Um so in in Canada, for example, which is the second largest country outside of the UK, we have what what we call a country leader.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Right.

SPEAKER_03 36:11

So that is finding uh another colon that's on the ground that can run the business model um uh and kind of growing it from there. We do have other countries like um Germany um and um what's the other one? Germany and America currently actually is running a model where it's like an incubator where we're getting a group of five CFOs together. Yeah. Um and a lot of value will come from the IP that we can create. Um we're currently going through a global system change, so we're going on to shared services, um, which is an an experience in itself, so that that will help around the marketing and the and the finance side of it. Um one step at a time, I guess. Yeah. I mean so impressive. Yeah, but it again it's it's heavily based on relationships and culture.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

So um I would just like to ask you about the relationship piece because it's been a um a blessing and a curse in my business, because with a fractional executive assistant, you obviously get to you build a relationship, it's quite a close relationship. I know you have an EA yourself, so like you that person gets to know a lot about you. And then uh when you touched on earlier about potentially like there might not be the right personality or culture fit, or if an EA leaves us, there's always that element of, but oh I'm gonna have to like they won't be as good as how how it because it's an ongoing challenge we have in our business. How have you how do you approach that in the CFO centre in terms of like matching CFOs with clients that come on board?

SPEAKER_03 37:47

The barbecue test. The barbecue test, and that's even for our like our central staff, so and our CFOs. So our CFOs go through a six-stage recruitment process.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

Oh really?

SPEAKER_03 37:57

Um, and that's meeting multiple stakeholders and you know it's not the credibility necessarily, certainly with the CFOs, because you can see that from a C V, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:07

But speaking to different stakeholders, getting that feedback around um and it doesn't stop because even on induction, for example, you know, at lunch, who who doesn't put their plate in the dishwasher? Who doesn't put the all these things are observed? Yeah, it's it's because we're looking for the the right the right people. Um so m like my dad has like a million and one, I call them bumper sticker sayings. Like he has these sayings like you know, this is a momentum business. I'm like, yeah, but what does that actually mean? And I I I I've really encouraged him, and thankfully he's gonna do it to to to write these all these sayings down and then kind of break it further and further and further down to what that actually means because holding on to that culture for me is the most important thing. Like a massive part of my success in the first year, 18 months, and why the commercial function ended up evolving and me taking it over was listen, I worked really, really hard and I had an amazing team, but the fact that I could ring up my dad and kind of soundboard with him, strategize with him, get those values of the business ingrained was I was really lucky to have that, and and obviously I I've then obviously tried to to give the team that.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

Yeah, that is a really interesting point you touched on because I think that's a a pro um a problem that a lot of businesses have with growth. What made it amazing at this point, and you're all a bit more like a family, and it's a bit smaller, and Colin's way of doing things seeps into everything, it gets harder as you grow.

SPEAKER_03 39:36

Uh yeah, and I've experienced that that first hand. Um I think one of the things that that is like kind of kept not kept me up at night, but like really stressed me out, is there has been change in our organization, and one of the things that gripes me is if I hear the you know the business is going corporate, like like that really gripes me.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

If people say it in the business, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:01

Because it's it's so far from being in a corporate environment, but there when you're growing and scaling like we are, yeah, there are things about corporate that are good systems, processes, scalability, all these things, but you just don't want the you know the bureaucratical stuff that comes with it. Yeah. So it it I've been through a bit of a journey the last four or five years implementing things into the business, which to me are common sense. For example, we never had a client journey.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Right.

SPEAKER_03 40:32

Like we didn't have a client journey. It was you know, you win the client, the CFO goes in, and they just go and they get away from the value of it, right? So when I took over as regional director in my region and listening to my dad, so by the way, nothing's changed. We've actually almost like you grow and people create their own truths and processes get lost because it's hard to control. Um and then I've kind of gone, my dad calls it back to the future. Um, because in my world, and and and you know, I've had this conversation with people in the organization to say, um, okay, this process that you talk about, say our sales and account management piece. Talk to me about um when you uh how does a client come about? It's like, well, the regional director will will meet their prospects and have a conversation. Okay, internally we call that a sales meeting one. Yeah, that's it, that's that's all it is. And then what happens after that? Well, then you're gonna have to introduce the CFO, aren't you? Okay, that's a sales meeting two. Yeah?

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:27

Okay, so what happens after that? It's like, well, then I'll I'll start with them and I'll look around the business and find out what they need. And I'm like, okay, so that's like a strategic review, and you're gonna create a work plan from that. Okay, so then what happens then? It's like I I I get on, I get on with it. I was like, well, no, because I've met that person and I've made them a bunch of promises about what we're gonna do. For me not to speak to them again seems ludicrous to me. Yeah, I'm gonna want to check in at the end of the first month. How are things going? How's the cultural fit? Have you got visibility on what the next three months looks like? All these types of things. You're gonna move into some form of account management process, right? Yeah, okay, I can see that makes sense. Right, so that's the process. What part of that is corporate? Do you know what I mean? It's like you've answered all the steps, and I've just told you that we have to get that down on a piece of paper because it needs to be reparable and scalable. Like the biggest fear I have is are you having the same experience as a client in Southampton, Sydney, because it needs to be so yeah, it can't be the Wild West. And that you know, for me, we've got a framework that I I really love. It's like um clarity and freedom. So if you've got a lack of clarity and a lack of freedom, you're gonna get complete disengaged, right? If you've got loads of clarity and no freedom, that's where the kind of corporate robot type comes. Yeah, if you've got a la lack of clarity and tons of freedom, that's actually anarchy.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:53

It's about having maximal clarity and maximum freedom.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:56

So for me and you to look at the same framework and delivering it, it might be delivered completely different. But as long as the it's visible that the fundamentals are there.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

I love that. We're we're we have we are on a very similar journey in my PA, and I think it find it, I think it's really interesting because I think when um people talk about scale, like it feels like you have to put all these systems and processes in. But what you've just articulated there is that they already exist, don't they? But they just need like the the way you've just mapped that out quite simply. Well, that is the process, but people, it's just kind of in the ether, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 43:30

And um it's the lot for me, it's logic and magic, right? I like that. You gotta have it's also a bumper sticker. Yeah, I think you're getting your own lace. Yeah, maybe I should yeah, maybe I should start adding to it. But like 20% of I I think 20% of the role, uh, when I look at the role, I say the commercial or in our business is logic. Okay, I need to understand the processes, etc. How I do that it is gonna bring it to life. It's what's gonna you know gonna make the difference between succeeding and failing, and that 80% is magic, and that's really hard to train. Um, but again, looking looking through the recruitment process.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Then that's when the person that's put the plate back in the dishwasher can bring that magic to it.

SPEAKER_03 44:11

Yeah, I th I think those cultural things are important, and then you obviously like you can we you know do profiling and all those things can give you an indication as well.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

Yeah. And um and just just on the scale piece, and because you you are a very big business now and just keeping that magic, how do you do it with um like the in because you've got an internal team as well, haven't you, of marketing sales, book like how do you because I know you do like summer conferences and things, and like how do you have a strategy of how you keep that culture? Because ultimately um the majority of the workforce, I guess, don't come together that often.

SPEAKER_03 44:45

So uh so head office was mum and dad's house and for a Long time until we kind of outgrew it, maybe around COVID.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

So you know that was the office up until 2020.

SPEAKER_03 44:55

Yeah, they converted they converted their um what was like a barn into into an office and mum would put a big lasagna down and everyone sit around the door too. I think when she came down in a robe and I think it was time to move out. Um so yeah, the head head office do a lot, you know. We we we uh work closely with the charity, so we have like prospect days, um uh they're constantly having like you know, all the the red nose days, all that all those events are like happening in in kind of head office. We've got our two-day UK conference next week, actually, Monday, Tuesday. So that will be um all of the CFOs, um, sent the central team have a conference as well. Um so yeah, uh we are a relationship-led business, so it does feel like a big family. Um, some are barbecues. So we we try to keep it um you know relationship orientated.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

I love that. Um and so what's what's just the plan for the CFO centre over the next five to ten years? Is it the succession plan ultimately and the the four Mills brothers will be heading it up?

SPEAKER_03 45:57

Yeah, yeah, that's the that's the the plan um at the you know at the moment, obviously. I think we've we we actually brought in a guy called Owen Eastwood into the business um to to do a talk. He he worked with like the England football team. I don't know if you've watched um Gareth Southgate's document not documentary, um there's a TV show about the England experience. Um and it was Owen actually worked with them. It's around belonging, right? Um, you know, your time in the sun. I think with the England team, you kind of uh tried to uh allude you know give give the players information that they were the 1,100 and first player to play for England. Like you are in a long line of people that have come before you. Yeah. So I think it's really, really important to remember the people that got us to where we've got to, yeah. And the things that we've done and carry carry forward to good things, um, drop the bad things, um, and look to look to move to to what the next leg of our journey is going to be. I think kind of shared services and unifying the global business is is is a huge, huge play, um, whilst keeping BAU moving forward and having all the successes. So yeah, it's uh it's challenging.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

Challenging, exciting as well.

SPEAKER_03 47:07

Yeah, 100%. To me, challenge is exciting.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Progress, it's all the same thing. Um we're coming towards the end of our time together, Matthew. It's been absolutely amazing. I'd just like just some like leaving thoughts on if there's a business owner listening to this and going, yeah, but it still sounds like what just what would you say to them if they were like, they're just I'm just not sure it's for me, I don't think I need that, I don't see what else they can teach me, like my business runs fine. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_03 47:35

Uh to those people, yeah. Uh okay, good luck. Like fine, like I genuinely like I'm not here, I'm not I'm not here to like say where the answer, but I've seen enough in my in my time client facing that we've got a great solution. So my encouragement would be to to pick up have a conversation. Um, you know, like I said, if it if it isn't if it isn't now, then that's fine. If we can genuinely add value, I I would I'll be firm in saying that that here we can here we can help with support.

SPEAKER_01 48:07

Yeah, no, I would definitely echo that because just to like reiterate, in the six months that I've been working with Paul, he has brought value that I didn't even know was going to happen, if that makes sense, because he's just kind of lifted the lid unpicked apart, like even my management accounts now are presented completely differently, and it gives a much deeper level of the profitability of different departments in my business.

SPEAKER_03 48:31

Um that's a huge credit credibility to you though, like because it is a leap of faith. Like, you know, I'm I'm sat on this side of the fence and I've I've heard clients go, like, is it too good to be true? and then you work with them, it's not. You know, I I I get frustrated if if clients use it for two months and then uh you know we'll stop. And it's like, you know, have you re have you really given it a go? And I I think it has to be that I think timing is a is a big part of it. So if if if you say like people going, you know, do I need this? It's like, well, maybe maybe you're not on the right headspace or the right time. Like we're not forcing it. Likewise, for our CFOs, we don't say to our CFOs, oh listen, this is opportunity work with them, like you must do it. They've also got a choice of do I want to work with this business? Is it something that I could get passionate about? Do I think I could add value? Um, so yeah, it has to be a mean of mind.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

No, um, I would totally agree with that. Because to be honest, like in January when I first met them, I wasn't in the headspace of like I really need a CFO, but I just wanted to um kind of echo what you said about the longer that we've worked together, and it's very similar in my business. Like, as somebody gets to know you and your inbox and your diary and your calendar better, like it gets better because you can add more value. And the longer me and Paul have been working together, for sure, he's gonna listen to this and go, Oh my god, just let's start talking about me now. But I do say to him all the time, I'm so glad we started working together. Yeah, the longer it's gone on, the more he's unpacked and the more he's been able to add value and stuff that I wouldn't have even seen coming.

SPEAKER_03 49:57

So that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Yeah, no, honestly, hats off to him, he's brilliant. Um, if people want to learn more or connect with you, Matthew, or find you, what where's the best place for them to go?

SPEAKER_03 50:07

Yeah, so the CFO Centre, uh, the website's kind of out there, have a look around. My favourite pages, the client success stories, because they're real, they're life-changing, right? Um Matthew.mils at CFOcentre.com, just drop me an email. Um, I'm more than happy to pick up and have a chat with anyone. Um, and like I say, you know, we are really passionate about changing people's lives, and and and that is the game we're in. It does. It just happens to be badged up in finance.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

In CFO, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

It's been awesome, Matthew. I think it's been really helpful. And I'll just say again, like if you're thinking I'm not sure, you should just have a chat, because I think like again, you don't know what you don't know. But thank you so much for today.

SPEAKER_03 50:44

No, thank you for having me.